We’ve not interviewed many DJs so far on No Tags (or not many people who are primarily known for their DJing, at least), so when we do, it’s a safe assumption that a) we’ve watched them play a few times, and b) they’re pretty tasty at it.
OK Williams falls into both categories. We’ve seen her DJ a lot, most recently at this summer’s Love International festival, and have never failed to leave the dancefloor refreshed. But as well as that, she’s one of our favourite dance music personalities, as evidenced on her regular NTS show (and, OK, her Twitter account) where she exhibits the sort of energising but also healthily realistic attitude that, frankly, more DJs could benefit from. Who knew there could be a link between having a personality and making people dance?
We sat down with OK Williams AKA Kanyin for a solid 80 minutes to talk, well, a lot. Is this one of our more forensic and focused interviews? No. Was a it a lot of fun to record? Undoubtably. It’s worth noting that the transcript that follows here is a pretty condensed version of our conversation, so for the full experience we really would recommend the podcast.
We don’t want to downplay things, though: OK Williams offers as much insight as entertainment. We talked through her formative raving years (good and bad), the musical awakening she found in queer clubs, her secret background in journalism (awkward!), her relationship with Andrew Weatherall, and some bigger picture questions on DJs as public figures and their responsibilities.
As ever, if you like what we’re doing at No Tags, then please rate, review or subscribe to us on your podcast app of choice. In their own abstract ways, these things help. You can also support the show in a more literal way via our paid tier, which costs £5 a month and really helps us keep bringing you these podcasts and transcripts.
Tom Lea: So a lot of people first would have encountered you doing NTS's Early Bird show [her former twice-weekly 7am to 9am slot]. Did you start doing it just before Covid happened?
OK Williams: No, I started during it Covid, but I did do a trial show in December 2020. Before that I had only really played clubby stuff on the radio, I'd maybe done one show here or there that wasn't dance-focused.
Tom Lea: And this was on NTS?
OK Williams: Yeah, I'd been doing NTS for about a year. I got asked to do the Early Bird for about three shows, and they went really well so they were like, ‘Yeah, we actually want to make this a thing.’ I did it from my bedroom. I would wake up at like… 6:54, 6:55?! Do a real quick soundcheck and be on air by about 7:02... maybe a bit later. But it was literally wake up, straight onto the radio. So that was quite an experience.
Tom Lea: How long did you do it for?
OK Williams: I did it for almost 11 months, but I stopped because obviously when I started doing it, clubs weren't open. I did it for a couple of months with clubs open, but the time difference was just way too intense. I'd be in the club, playing until like 5am on the weekends, so my sleeping pattern was all over the place.
Chal Ravens: I’ve found this to be one of the main occupational hazards of trying to be a dance music journalist, too.
Tom Lea: I do think about this sometimes. When we were working together at FACT we were out all the time. I had to pull through some of the most brutal hangovers of my life to crank out an 8am news story about a Four Tet album or whatever.
Chal Ravens: Yeah, with just a Leon egg pot for company. I think that has taken at least months, if not years, off of my life. So are you a camper? Do you enjoy to camp at a festival?
OK Williams: Not anymore, but my entire 20s was camping at festivals. I haven’t camped at a festival for a minute though. I’ll camp at Glastonbury obviously, but other than that I would prefer not to. But I can do it.
Chal Ravens: Were you going to dance festivals?
OK Williams: I was going to dance festivals. From around 21, post-university, to… really until the pandemic, I'd go to festivals all the time. I was going to Houghton, I was going to Gottwood, I was going to Brainchild, I was going to Glasto. But the first festival I ever went to was Reading.
Tom Lea: What’s the most memorable stuff you saw at Reading?
OK Williams: I remember seeing Mount Kimbie but I had no idea who Mount Kimbie were. I think I was about 16 at the time, and I was just like, ‘OK, I'm gonna stick around for this.’ I saw Giggs – that was very memorable because I got piss thrown on me. People would just piss in cans and throw them at that time. Wait, no, it wasn't Giggs – it was The Streets.
Chal Ravens: You know those metal trackways they use to stop the paths becoming total mud when it rains? I remember seeing people get into two shopping trolleys on them, wrapping the trolleys in toilet paper, set the toilet paper on fire and then driving the trolleys towards each other at full speed. You’d see them crash into a tent, some random person’s tent would end up on fire. It was so turbo, people getting Lynx [deodorant] cans and throwing them into the fire, blowing them up. That’s what people were doing there. There’s nothing to do after the bands finish, so no wonder.
OK Williams: There was a silent disco [when I went there], but when you think about it, everything’s basically done at 11pm.
Chal Ravens: Which is crazy. These kids are awake.
OK Williams: Yeah. I wasn’t taking drugs when I was there either, I didn't really drink or take drugs until I turned about 19. My mum was strict in that department, but she did let me go to festivals. I’ve always had a very clear love for music, so if I wanted to go a live thing, a gig or a show, and I was going with someone, then she was actually pretty chill.
Chal Ravens: So what were you like as a teenager?
OK Williams: I was very similar to how I am now really, very much the same. I wasn't really trying to do crazy things as a teenager. Like, I was never really partying or out late, or like with boys. I was a bit of a nerd, not in like a bad way, but I just didn't really care about that kind of stuff. I always cared about music. I was always listening to music by myself at home, downloading stuff a lot. I loved a lot of indie rock: Two Door Cinema Club, The Maccabees, Kasabian, and then also a lot of Beyoncé, Sean Paul, just like pop music of that age. And then I remember when the Twilight soundtrack came out, and I was literally like ‘what the fuck?’
Chal Ravens: What’s on the Twilight soundtrack? You're gonna have to refresh my memory.
OK Williams: The first one had Muse, Paramore, Linkin Park, St. Vincent was on there. Metric, The Black Keys… And then my dad also had a massive CD collection, so lots of R&B, Foxy Brown, LL Cool J. That was just what was on. But indie rock was the stuff that I discovered myself.
Tom Lea: What was your first big club night?
OK Williams: My first big club night was at Fabric, that was the first club I went to. I was 17 and used my sister's ID, it said I was 23 [laughter]. And yeah, it was... what were the Chase & Status nights that they used to do? It was one of the drum and bass nights, anyway, I remember Chase & Status were DJing. The first raves that I went to were drum and bass raves. I didn't really go out that much because I was still in sixth form. But I went to Fabric a couple times, went to Plastic People once, and then went to Cable a couple of times.
Tom Lea: I feel like no one talks about Cable, but I think it was a really formative club for a lot of people.
OK Williams: Cable was actually seminal. And the space was so sick. It was definitely formative for me, yeah. When I went to university in Leeds, for the first term I was still mostly going to drum and bass nights, like lots of liquid D&B nights. I was listening to [other] dance music at the time, I started listening to dance music when I was in sixth form, really. A lot of Floating Points and Joy Orbison, that kind of stuff. But I was never really that interested in going raving to house music, because I thought it would be… not boring, but when I was in the rave, I was like, I want high energy, fast tempos. But then I went to a couple of [Pearson Sound’s vinyl-focused club night] Acetate nights in Leeds.
Tom Lea: That was at [recently closed Leeds club] Wire, right?
OK Williams: At Wire, yeah. And I would go to Mint Club, Mint Warehouse, Canal Mills… and then I just started going out to 4x4 stuff mostly.
Chal Ravens: Did you choose Leeds in part because of the music?
OK Williams: I chose Leeds because I visited a friend there and went out with him and all his friends and I was like, whoa, this is so much fun. Went to a couple of house parties and I was like, yeah, I've got to go there.
Chal Ravens: What did you do with yourself at uni?
OK Williams: So I studied journalism… I know, awkward! I eventually dropped out, but at the time I was very much like, journalism is my passion. Music was never something that was on the radar. Music journalism, perhaps potentially. But then I started it and the course was a bit boring and very much not what I thought I'd be doing. We did this really, really boring radio module. And I was like, nah…
Chal Ravens: I will never be on the radio [laughter]
OK Williams: Exactly! But at the time I was like, this is not what I want to be doing. I always liked current affairs – well, I don't want to say current affairs interests me, because that's life – life interests me. But I remember I used to read the newspaper every day before school and my form tutor would like be like, ‘So what's going on in the world today?’ And I would just tell everyone what was happening.
Tom Lea: Did you ever write for the student paper?
OK Williams: I did have my own blog. I don’t have that much to say about it, but I wrote for a blog for a hot second when I was in sixth form as well. It was mainly music and fashion. Like, I used to love Beth Ditto at the time so I wrote something about her – just trying to live my Gossip Girl fantasy. I can’t remember what the blog was called, but I wouldn’t divulge that information even if I did, because it might still be on the internet.
Chal Ravens: There are some tunes that I've heard you play that I thought I'd ask about. This year in particular you've been playing Bodyrox’s ‘Yeah Yeah’, which I've heard you play more than once, and Princess Superstar’s ‘Perfect (Exceeder)’. I guess you weren't really old enough to be going out when that sound was happening, but tell me about that corner of your DJ folder, because I don't think I've heard anyone else make that connection. Clearly it's a little Brat Summer nod, is it not?
OK Williams: I mean, I love all those kind of noughties club classics, like noisy electro, electro-clashy stuff. That was always music that I would listen to. I was listening to everything when I was a kid really. I remember when I was at school, I had this PE [physical education] aerobics class, and my teacher asked if somebody could make us a CD for the class, so we could have some music. And I was like, ‘I will make that CD’. My teacher was amazed because she obviously assumed it was going to be R&B or whatever, but it was Princess Superstar, Bodyrox, Eric Prydz, Benny Benassi. I’ve always just really loved that stuff.
I first started playing that Princess Superstar tune last summer. I don’t know why it came back up in my memory, but I was just like, this is a banger. And it made me revisit all of these tunes from childhood. I know they’re quote-unquote tacky, but that Bodyrox tune, if you take that out of any context, that is an insane synth. Like that synth on a dance floor, on a system, sounds nuts. So why am I not going to play these tunes? ‘Yeah Yeah’ specifically is one of my favourite songs of all time. ‘Von Dutch’ [Charli XCX’s single which nods to ‘Yeah Yeah’] came out and I was like, this is literally Bodyrox. I went back and started listening to it a lot more and was like actually, I need to play this outside. I really like playing things from my childhood, I like playing pop music, and I like playing music where it’s a reference point for the majority of the crowd. And I just really enjoy… I would say nostalgia, but with tunes that are also just good, you know?
Chal Ravens: On NTS not so long ago you played ‘Where Has The Love Gone?’ from the Kylie Minogue album, which is an incredible record. Obviously in some ways, she has a slightly weedy voice, a very white-girl voice, but it really works, like you really believe her.
OK Williams: There's another one on that album called ‘Falling’ – that’s my favourite on that album, it’s so beautiful. There are four tunes on there that are fully playable, 100%.
Chal Ravens: And semi related, I saw you in Panorama Bar about two years ago and you ended with ‘Gimme More’ by Britney Spears. I suppose now that we've had two years of the discourse around pop edits this comes off a bit different, but…
OK Williams: But I’m not playing edits though really, that’s the thing.
Chal Ravens: Yeah, it was the original song. And anyone who is reaching for Blackout-era Britney to me is making a very distinct decision, you know?
OK Williams: It’s like me playing Bodyrox. I have a… I don't want to say unpretentious attitude to music, but I really just don't care – if I like things [I’ll play them]. Obviously you have to toe the line, and it can get to a point where it does get gimmicky, but for me, if I’m playing a set for four hours of super underground music, and then for the last five minutes I want to play some pop, I feel like that's just such a nice way to round it off. Like, we've been on this journey, we've played all these tunes, we've played all this dance music and now we're just going to reach this crescendo, and it's just going to be pop euphoria.
Tom Lea: It's the victory lap. You've earned it.
OK Williams: Yeah. And especially somewhere like Panorama Bar, where the vibe… I mean, Panorama Bar is maybe not even the best example, but a queer party where the vibe is very silly, somewhere like Adonis for example, of course I want to have a silly pop moment, because it’s appropriate, you know?
Chal Ravens: But that’s why it worked so well in Panorama Bar, because it is right at the edge of the amount of silliness, or mainstream-iness, that you could get away with, but you're also talking about some of the most incredibly produced music ever made. You can be quite pretentious about the music of Blackout. It’s quite experimental, it was seen as weird at the time. People were like, ‘What is she doing? She's killing her career with this weird music.’
OK Williams: That tune, ‘Gimme More’, the production on that track is crazy. I think sometimes pop music gets a disservice because you don't hear it on crazy sound systems. ‘Gimme More’ more on a sick system sounds… yeah, it fills everything, it just takes over everything. I want to experience that.
Chal Ravens: Are you a dancer as well as a DJ? Do you just going out still?
OK Williams: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I live to dance, yeah.
Tom Lea: I feel like I've seen you tweet about this, like, ‘Never talk to me when I'm dancing.’
OK Williams: I live to be on the dancefloor. I genuinely find such peace and contentment on a dancefloor. When I go out, I'm always looking for this eyes-closed moment on the dancefloor. I'm always chasing that. And so whenever I DJ I'm always like, that's what I want to create.
Chal Ravens: Where do you like to go out? What is your ideal scenario?
OK Williams: I love to go to Adonis. I sometimes go to Ormside Projects, if something good's going on there. If I'm DJing somewhere good then I like to just have an hour’s dance after a set, you know, catch a vibe before I go home. So I do feel like I get to dance quite a lot, pretty much every weekend I'll have some kind of minor dance.
Chal Ravens: You mentioned going out to Fabric and having a lengthy drum and bass era, but were there any rave epiphanies that brought you into a new era of more serious or grown-up raving, if you like? Because I definitely enjoyed raving when I was 18 or 19, but actually, there have been many times much, much later in life that really reaffirmed my love for it.
OK Williams: Yeah, defo. I think my proper rave epiphanies were when I started going to queer parties. That really changed everything, it changed what I understood that raving could actually be. I was always going out to raves for music, but I would go out with friends that kind of liked music but really just wanted to get fucked.
But when I started DJing and met people that shared my musical interests, specifically when I met women and queer people that shared the interests that I had, it really opened up so many doors. The first time I went to a queer rave in the UK was Chapter 10, and I was just like, wow. The freedom, the expression – really cliché shit, but it was what I had always been looking for out of dance music. I've always been looking for the essence of what it truly was when I got into raving. The spirit of rave was something that spoke to me, and then I really found it in in queer spaces.
Tom Lea: It’s the freedom and expression, but also – and obviously this is out of necessity – when you go to good queer parties, you realise how much attention is put towards making it a good party, beyond just the line-up. Not to generalise, but so many of the parties you can go to, and certainly so many we all went to growing up, it’s just ‘line-up, venue, bang’ and nothing else. And then when you go to a party where that level of attention is put into making it a comfortable space, you’re like, wow, this is how it can be.
OK Williams: I think for queer people it’s so much more of a lifeline. And when I first started going out, I did feel like clubbing was a lifeline. It was the place where I felt the most at home, and I where felt like I actually belonged, I’ve always felt like the club is where I need to be, but when I started going to queer parties it really affirmed that. This is what I've been looking for. And because raving and those spaces are far more important to queer people and to marginalised people, they do take it more seriously. I honestly take raving so seriously, and I take club culture so seriously.
Chal Ravens: When did you decide to take DJing seriously?
OK Williams: Honestly, DJing took me seriously. That's actually what happened, I swear. I’d never DJed, I didn’t know anybody in the music industry, I didn’t know anything. I was always on the outside looking in. And then I volunteered at NTS. I did my first shift in 2017, and by 2018 I was in the studio every week, just being a studio assistant. And around that time I started learning how to DJ. So I started practicing. I’d dropped out of uni, had done nothing for a couple of years, just working random shit jobs, and I’m just like, right, give this a go. And then pretty much from 2018 I would just get booked. I practiced a lot, and by 2018 I was like, nah, I know how to mix, I can beat-match, I’ve got this. And then I started learning how to mix records. Because I was at NTS I would just meet people, I’d meet promoters or DJs, and then from there it just kind of snowballed.
Tom Lea: Was there anyone in particular who took you under their wing there? Any mentors, or people who just generally helped you out?
OK Williams: Andrew Weatherall. I wouldn't say he was my mentor, but we just would chat a lot. I produced his NTS show for two and a bit years, so we would smoke and chat, and he'd give me records and CDs and stuff like that.
Chal Ravens: Were you doing his show when he died?
OK Williams: Yeah, it was really sad. I was really, really sad about it. He was just such a don and we really were friendly. It was the time when DJing was really becoming a thing for me. I first got booked at Panorama Bar, and I was like to him, ‘Yo, I got booked at Panorama Bar!’ He was like, ‘Alright, sick.’ I played the show and he passed away the next week. We were meant to have a show together, and I was so excited to tell him about Panorama, but he passed away. That was really sad. But I definitely try and channel his spirit a lot. If I get brought a gig or an opportunity and I'm like, ‘What should I do about this?’ I think, ‘What would Weatherall do?’ I'm not gonna necessarily do what he would do, because he's in a whole league of his own. But what would he say to me?
Tom Lea: I've used that exact phrase before, 100%.
Chal Ravens: I think I also have.
OK Williams: Yeah, what would Weatherall do? What would Josey Rebelle do?
Tom Lea: The thing about Weatherall is not just that he was obviously an incredible DJ and artist, but he was someone who stood for stuff, he was principled. There’s very few of those people, and not to be too corny but I think you do need to channel their spirit where you can.
OK Williams: He passed away just before lockdown, and I think everything since that has been a whole different kettle of fish. So I really try and be like, what would he do in this situation? Because I do feel like since then things have kind of snowballed when it comes to DJing.
Tom Lea: ‘R.I.P. Andrew Weatherall, you’d have hated Fred Again.’ All time banger of an OK Williams tweet there.
OK Williams: Oh god, are we gonna talk about my Twitter? [Laughter]
Chal Ravens: Talking about DJs, though, I feel like we have been living for a while now in a new superstar DJ era. There's a disproportionate thing going on where DJ fees remain broadly quite buoyant compared to other fees in the industry, but also, you know, DJs have to be public figures now. Effectively, they are often basically social media influencers. And I think there’s also been a sense, which I partially think is quite sexist, that there are now ‘too many DJs’. All these new DJs have come along, particularly since Covid, and I think there’s a certain seam of oldheads who are like, ‘Oh, these new people are coming through and they’re not even serious DJs, and they play pop music and whatever.’ But you strike us as someone who’s got a healthy cynicism about some of these things. So number one, are there too many DJs? Can you have too many DJs?
OK Williams: Do you think that it’s sexist?
Chal Ravens: I think that because there didn't used to be so many women DJs, and I do think there's an element of, ‘Well, now anyone can be a DJ’ – and it's partly because you're seeing more women doing it.
OK Williams: Yeah, I think you're right about that. People think there’s this really sudden influx of women, and that now there's more women than there are men, but the percentages, I'm sure, are still pretty disproportionate. I'm sure there's still a much higher percentage of men, but women are just visible now. Now they're actually just getting a chance.
I do think the DJ market is oversaturated though. I don't know what it was like back in the day, but I think that a lot of people want to be a DJ but they don't have a natural talent for music. And that's where I think the problem is. Loads of people have a natural talent for music, loads, and even if you don't have a natural talent for music, do your thing and practice and you can have fun. But I think people that don't have a natural talent for music still want to go somewhere and to be a thing, and not just be a hobby. And a lot of people are not naturally good at this. Some people, if you hum a note at them, they don't hum the same note back, you know? And I'm sorry but if that’s you, maybe DJing is not for you. And that's fine, you can have fun, but don't expect too much from it.
I think not only is the market oversaturated, but people expect a lot from it now. There’s definitely the expectation for it to blossom into a career. And I think because DJs are so visible, and because you see them a lot on social media, and because the superstar DJ is having its renaissance, I think people see it really happening for a lot of people, and they're like, ‘Well, of course I could do that because she's doing it.’
Chal Ravens: I don't feel like you even use social media that much, or not in the sense of using it to boost your career a lot anyway. I'm not seeing you be like, ‘Here’s all the places I’m playing!’ constantly.
OK Williams: I have a very difficult relationship with social media. I think if I was somebody that could be on it and not end up doom-scrolling for hours or being like, ‘What are they doing? What am I doing?’ If I wasn't that kind of person then maybe I'd use it more. No disrespect to anybody that uses social media, I just can't, because it just drives me mental.
Chal Ravens: Is that a problem? Is that limiting for your career in any way?
OK Williams: I do sometimes worry that it is. If there's a month where I haven't had that many bookings, I can be a bit like, why am I not more booked? Is it because I'm not present online? And I would guess that's a question I will never have the answer to, but I try not to think about it too much. I could be doing more on social media, but I don't. I would rather let the DJ sets do the talking, you know, let the music speak for itself. And I feel like a lot of like the opportunities that I've had, I know they've not come from Instagram. They’ve come from me DJing in a place, and a promoter was there, and then they've booked me somewhere else. I’d rather have that than being somebody that's really present and loud online, and then that kind of snowballs into loads of followers, and then that becomes bookings. That's not what I want, I don't think.
Tom Lea: Something I see cropping up a bit, mostly from other DJs actually, is this idea that DJing is embarrassing now, because of this aspirational lifestyle aspect that we've seen attached to it. Do you ever have moments where you’re a bit… not embarrassed, necessarily, but do you ever look around and—
OK Williams: Oh, do I look around? I look around and I'm like, what's going on? Why are we all playing this game? Why are we thinking that we have to jump through these hoops? I know it’s different when you’re releasing music –I'm not putting [my own] music out, and if that changes then I think maybe my attitude towards social media will switch up a little bit. But for me, at the moment, it's DJ bookings. Music's not a visual thing. I mean, obviously it can be if you have visuals and stuff, but I don't know why we rely so heavily on this app that is pictures and images. That’s not what I'm selling. There’s so much emphasis placed on Instagram. And I think we are perpetuating that a little bit ourselves.
Tom Lea: You do produce a bit though, right?
OK Williams: I’ve been trying to make music for ages. I'm getting there. I think I just put a lot of pressure on myself when it comes to music, I want to be able to put music out that sounds as good as the shit that I'm playing. I don’t think I spend enough hours making music. It's something that you really have to be dedicated to, and I think I just haven't reached that point yet where I'm like, this is my focus. Like, DJing has been completely my focus, so I find making music harder, so that's also part of why I haven't really knuckled down yet, because I do find it difficult. I'm just stuck in the loop stage for ages. But lately I have been going to the studio with people and they’re like, ‘This is good, finish these and you’ve got an EP.’ So I’ve got a lot to finish.
Chal Ravens: Are you an organised DJ? What sort of folder names are we working with?
OK Williams: I’m a disorganised DJ. I hate it about myself. The next couple weeks I've got a bit more free time so I'm really gonna put some hours aside to organising my music library. What I do is make lots of different playlists based on vibes, so I have a cunty playlist, a deep and sexy bag, weird club, just stuff that makes sense to me. There’s some cheeky ones in there, one literally just called ‘sex’. I actually don’t use Rekordbox at all. I organise my music on iTunes because I’ve used it since I was like 13. So that’s the only way I’ve ever known.
I have two USBs, one that’s by month, so my new tracks from that month, and another that’s by vibes. It’s the same music, all the same tracks, but I find it easier to know what I’m doing that way. So I’ll have all my fresh stuff, that’s the base, that’s mostly what I’ll play from. But when there’s a moment where I’m like, I want to play some baile funk, I’ll then use the other USB, where it’s more organised by genre and vibe, so it’s easier for me to find what I’m looking for. But I’m really disorganised with my music filing. I wish when I first started DJing that someone had told me that half the job is file management, because I’m bad with that.
Chal Ravens: Have you ever had any nightmare sets? It feels to me like you’ve been taken by surprise at your natural talent for it, so I can't really imagine you having a really bad set in that sense. Have you ever cleared the floor?
OK Williams: I’ve never cleared the floor. I don’t think I play stuff that’s weird enough. I definitely can cater to the crowd too much sometimes. I think there's a lot of stuff, even stuff I that would play on my radio show, that I would never play in a club – stuff that's maybe a bit weirder or edgier or maybe a little bit bit less danceable. Sometimes when I'm DJing I do feel this immense pressure to make sure everyone's dancing all the time. I had a revelation recently that I need to stop playing tunes that I think are going to make them dance, and just play what I want, and if they dance that's a nice consequence. But that’s also maybe a bit wrong. That's maybe not the DJ philosophy I want, I do want people to dance. But there can be moments where people stop dancing, and it's fine. I always get very in my head about it. Also it’s because that’s what I want from a club and from a dancefloor [as a dancer]. I want to dance hard.
Tom Lea: What’s your all-time favourite DJ set you've played?
OK Williams: I think I'd say Dweller festival last year in New York. I played at Nowadays, it was a long set, a five-hour set – 9am until 2pm or something like that. That was a really good set. I feel like I get a lot of love in New York for some reason, what I do really connects there. And it was for Dweller obviously, which is a festival that celebrates Black music and artists. So I really played the full spectrum of Black electronic music. I started with amapiano and just went up through every shade up to jungle, and then some R&B and hip-hop to finish. Someone called it an afro-diasporic dissertation of music. I was like, ‘Yeah, that’s it, that’s what I did!’ [Laughter] But it did feel a bit like that. Almost every shade of dance music that I could play that’s Black I played, so that was nice.
Chal Ravens: I have a difficult question. I know that you follow current affairs, and I know that you’re currently still playing in Germany, and you’re playing at Berghain.
OK Williams: Not anymore, not anymore.
Chal Ravens: Well, tell me about that broader situation, because I appreciate there is a lot of difficulty there. But also I can see why a lot of people have decided that they’re just not going to play in Germany, or not going to play Berghain. How have you thought about that question?
OK Williams: It’s tough. I'm not playing there anymore. I didn't join the boycott when Ravers for Palestine called for the boycott, because I didn't so much agree with it. But I'm not playing there anymore because I just felt like, I don't agree with this. Obviously, I ride for Palestine, I always have, always will, I don't even feel like I need to say that half the time. But it got to a point recently where I'm just kind of like, OK, I obviously do not agree with what they did whatsoever [Berghain cancelling Arabian Panther’s performance]. It was very racist, it was racist behaviour. But also Berghain as an institution… it’s so complicated, and I don’t need to be telling them what to do.
Anyway, I’m not playing there anymore. Because I felt like, why am I really aligning myself with this place that doesn’t give a fuck about Palestine?
Chal Ravens: I feel that there’s lack of nuance about it sometimes, a lack of hearing somebody from inside of it being able to talk about it, if you know what I mean?
OK Williams: Of course. There is nobody inside there that's really gonna speak on anything. The attitude and energy around the club has always been so hush-hush, so it’s like, I play there a lot but I definitely don't have any kind of say on what's going on there.
I'm so, so worried about the backlash that I will get for anything that I say about Palestine and Berghain, and I have been so quiet about it. I will play my shows there and post that I'm playing there, but that's it, because I have been so stressed about, you know, people saying all these things about me online that are not true.
Chal Ravens: Has that happened already then?
OK Williams: Yeah, people just chatting shit. I got a few DMs from people just being like, ‘Why do you think it's okay to cross the picket line? Do you not understand? You're supporting a genocide by playing here’, and I’m just not. I’m not supporting a genocide. And DJing at Berghain has no material contribution to the genocide. But by me still playing there, I’m also legitimising this place when they’re doing some bullshit that I don’t agree with. So it was a really difficult thing. I don’t like being like, ‘Oh, woe is me, it was such a hard decision’ – but it was a hard decision. That was my most played club by a mile, and I felt really at home there. And it’s definitely somewhere that has really helped me grow as a DJ.
So it was not an easy decision for me to make. It was a really fucking hard decision for me to make, and I took a long time to make that decision, because I just kind of wasn't ready to make that decision. And also, part of it was that I can’t really play other places in Berlin. I’m in Berlin all the time, but the only place I play is Berghain. I’ve played maybe one other club in Berlin.
Chal Ravens: As in you wouldn’t, or couldn’t?
OK Williams: I couldn’t, because of exclusivity. One month either side of every [Berghain] show, I couldn’t play in Berlin, and I’d be playing there four or five times a year. So that was part of it as well, I was like, OK, this club kind of has a monopoly over me. So there were all kinds of factors that made me feel that my time there was coming to an end. And I think, honestly, I could’ve cancelled my shows there sooner, but it was really difficult.
No disrespect ever to anybody who is still playing there either. I kind of feel where we're at at the moment is people don’t agree with the way that you want to do something, but then they feel like that gives them the liberty to tell you that you're doing it all wrong and you're actually a shit person, and what you should be doing is this. I feel like we’re actually on the same page, but maybe the way we do it might be a bit different. But there's no room for conversation.
Tom Lea: OK, final question: what film would you recommend us?
OK Williams: I think it's going to be Set It Off. Have you seen it?
Tom Lea: I have not seen it in a long time, I saw it as a kid.
OK Williams: Yeah, I hadn’t watched it for a long time. It’s Queen Latifah, Jada Pinkett Smith, it’s about four Black women who become bank robbers. It’s very ‘90s. The soundtrack is actually pretty good as well, it’s got some good original tracks.
It’s great for vocal samples. I watched it recently, and you know, you’ll get these ‘freeze motherfucker!’ moments, ‘bam!’, something like that. So I watched it recently and took a few little sound bites from it, because I just thought this stuff would sound really cool in a tune. I do love that film.
27: What would OK Williams do?