Rave royalty on No Tags this week as we’re joined by Paul Woolford.
We’re both drawn to artists who are driven by a compulsion to put art into the world at all costs – and 25 years into his career, Woolford (AKA Special Request) seems to be more driven than ever. In the last six years he’s released six albums and countless singles and remixes, and he still tours relentlessly – from seasons in Ibiza to grubby late-nighters at the White Hotel.
He’s also constantly collaborating – who else can you name who’s worked with Novelist, Diplo, Alison Goldfrapp and MK? And that’s how we introduced him on stage at the British Library earlier this year, where he joined us for a live conversation as part of AVA London.
So what keeps Wooly going? As we found out, it’s a combination of strict routine, restless enthusiasm and a tight family unit. He also makes a good case for sacking your manager. We talked about David Lynch and Francis Bacon, his latest bit of studio gear, and the good (or bad?) old days of Ibiza. Frankly, it felt like we were only scratching the surface. Check out the transcript below.
Before that, we investigate the next wave of elite-level London day festivals, discover Tom’s past life working the champagne bar for Westlife and discuss Robbie Williams CGI monkey biopic Better Man. Let us know your thoughts – and of course, any other feedback – via email.
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CR: You’ve done a lot of interviews and talked extensively about how you work in the studio, so we wanted to talk a bit about how you keep your machine running and the breadth of your career.
TL: What iteration of Paul Woolford are we currently talking to? If you were Taylor Swift, which era would you be in?
PW: [Laughter] Yeah, I can’t answer that. But what I can say is that right now, I’m not doing anything because it’s an obligation. I’ve always done my own thing but sometimes you get pulled in directions because of the way you can get influenced by various factors. Over the years I’ve created this method where I have an idea, execute it and then move on to the next. I’m not spending any time questioning myself, I just do it.
I used to be 24-7, working around the clock, completely obsessed – as I always have been, but it was unhealthy. And now that’s not the case. It’s routine. It’s a boring answer, isn’t it? But that’s what it is, it’s routine. It’s every day. I have some weekends when I’m not touring, like this weekend, where I can do other things. But by and large, every day is in the [studio].
TL: Was there a point where you managed to crack that routine?
PW: It’s been slow and gradual. But routine’s been the thing that’s unlocked it all. Because what I used to do is I’d go in the studio or I’d be with other people and we’d work for 12 hours, 15 hours. And when you come out of that, you look back and you’re like, probably five of those hours were good. And the rest of it was trying and failing, or trying and just banging your head against the wall. But it’s not like that now. It’s totally concentrated.
Also, real talk: the years roll by. There’s a sand timer there. Not to unnerve any of you, but there is a timer and you only have so much energy. And when you can see and feel the energy that you’ve got, you’ve got to just do it. You have to. You can’t spend your time going, ‘is that me?’ Make it you if you want to make it you.
TL: On that note, I dug out a quote of yours that I thought was quite good, from around 2019: ‘For a few years, I was self-editing. That’s over now. Everything’s going in. Even if I get fucking slated for it, I don’t care.’ Is that still your guiding principle?
PW: Yeah, more so. I don’t give a fuck. Honestly, I don’t. [You mentioned that] I’ve done a lot of interviews… I did do a lot of interviews. I pretty much don’t do this now. We’re doing this today because I listen to your podcast. Because I can feel the enthusiasm. And that’s the thing that I connect to in other people, enthusiasm.
I think the best thing for anybody that’s an artist or wants to be an artist and wants to know how to navigate it all [is to] find the people who are enthusiasts, who are in the positions that have influence but have real enthusiasm. They’re hard to find. But when you find them, you need to connect with them because they can affect your life in ways that you will never know.
They’re the people that are going to talk about you in other rooms to other people and big you up. Whereas people who are not enthusiastic, people who are just doing a job, they’re never going to talk like that about you. But the people that love it and they’re all about it and the passion is tangible, you can tell. They’re the people that are going to talk about you.
TL: When you talk about not self-editing, is that a holistic thing? Is this almost like striving for a form of pure creativity at all costs?
PW: When I said that [in 2019] I was coming out of a period of being with a management company. They only understood 10% of my output, but they made hay with it. The combination worked until it didn’t, and then when it didn’t, it was like, wow, you don’t understand most of [what I’m making]. We would have conversations and I’d be like, ‘I feel like I’m talking to somebody who’s never met me before.’ It’s insane. So it was born from that. And then came the realisation, hang on, why am I not [managing] myself?
TL: Did you find being managed was getting in the way?
PW: Yeah, totally. It was a limitation, it was a complete limitation.
TL: Because we should establish you’ve not had a manager for… 15 years?
PW: 15 years, yeah.
TL: So why is that?
PW: Because no one’s up to it. [Laughter] No, but the first reason is if I bring in a manager, I have to have every conversation twice. I haven’t got time for that. Who’s got time for that? But over and above the practical things, I think there’s two types of artists. There’s artists that want to do this because they love it. They’re all in and they want to know everything about it. They want to know every detail. They’re just obsessed with it.
And there’s artists who come into it like, ‘Oh, I think I like that. I get some fun out of it.’ But they don’t really care about the ins and outs of it. It’s a more causal sort of engagement with it. And a manager should be somebody who has done all the work on the other side of it. They have the connections. They should understand everyone’s story involved. They should know the history of all the label execs. They should know the intricacies of relationships and they should know how to harness those. But most of them don’t. There’s a tiny handful who do, but most don’t.
And we can all learn this [how to be a music manager]. We can find out this information. It’s all out there if you want to learn it. And when you do, you find out how things should be and how things can be, and then you can do it yourself. But record labels will find that awkward. They find it awkward negotiating with the artists. They’re horrified.
TL: What? I’d always rather speak to the artist.
PW: Of course you would, because you’re you, and you’re about it. But when you get to the majors they find it tricky because they want it to be nice and fluffy. When you’re talking business terms, that’s a whole other thing. So I realised you can bring people in to do jobs, and that’s probably the most effective way to do it, to bring in business managers. That’s what David Bowie did. David Bowie was unmanaged. I had no idea until the other week.
I saw a video and he was telling a story about… what song was it? I think it was ‘Fame’. John Lennon co-wrote it. It came from a conversation between them where Lennon was moaning about his manager, and Bowie said, ‘You don’t need one. You just hire people to do a job.’ And when you know what you want, that’s what you do. You hire people to do a job because somebody taking… people are going to hate me saying this, but somebody taking 20% of everything, 20% of your publishing – that’s the songwriting – that’s crazy. They didn’t write the song. Why are they taking that? I’m going to get pilloried for this. But it’s true.
CR: Tell us a bit about who you actually have around you then, because you do have a team.
PW: Yeah, it’s almost like a family setup. I work with two agents – one agent for most of the world and another agent for the US. And then my stepdaughter does some bookkeeping, my missus does a load of other stuff, logistics and all this, and then between us we’ve got it there. And then I have two lawyers, one of them’s a contract lawyer and the other’s for… you know, when you need something a bit heavier. We all do at some point in this game.
CR: Just going back to that idea of being in the studio, keeping things flowing, what’s your current routine? For the productivity heads.
PW: Yeah, it’s heavy routine. I wake up about six-ish every day and do a couple of hours of exercise.
CR: What exercise are we doing?
PW: Now we’re doing yoga, which I love. I really love it. And walking, swimming, and some other stuff. And then I’m in the studio from 11. And I’m out six or seven PM, pretty much every time. Occasionally, if I’m finishing an album or something, that changes. But by and large I’m out at six or seven. And I can pretty much get what I want done.
CR: I feel like I’ve seen and read a fair bit about what you’ve got in your studio. You’ve got a lot of stuff.
PW: Probably many moons ago, yeah.
CR: When was the last time a new bit of technology came along – hardware, software, anything – that really excited you or changed your workflow significantly?
PW: You know the mad thing? I bought a piece of kit last year that just sat in the box until about six weeks ago. And it’s something that’s been around for a long time. It’s an MPC, but it’s an MPC with a keyboard attached to it. It’s got a sound engine in it. And since I opened it, the sounds that are inside it have been on everything I’ve made since then. It really surprised me, I didn’t expect it. I thought the sounds would be rubbish. That’s no offence to Akai, if anyone here is from Akai. But I was wrong. They’re great. And they slot into the mix so well. It’s crazy. And I was messing around with Serum 2 yesterday, which is pretty juicy. A bit rowdy, but you know.
CR: I think it’s quite heartening that it was only six weeks ago that you found something like that.
PW: Yeah, it’s a quest. It’s constant.
CR: So we hear quite a lot about clubbing being in decline. Everyone talks about it, either because of the financial challenges for promoters and venues, or because crowds are just on their phones and they’re not in the moment, or whatever. But as someone who still plays a real range of events, how would you summarise the current state of the dance floor?
PW: I think there’s two things going on. There’s something that is born from a subculture and then there’s this other thing which has become mainstream culture, and the two things are pushed together and there’s a lot of grind there. It’s working in some ways and it’s not working in other ways. And you see it more at big events. If you’re playing a huge event, like five, six, seven thousand people, there’ll be most of the people going mad, and then there’ll be a line of people at the front who are just staring at you, blank. It’s like, you might get knocked over tomorrow! Make your life count. It’s important. You have to enjoy yourselves. But I think you’ve just got people coming into it who… they just don’t know what it is. It’s not their fault. They’re just not aware of the history. They don’t know that it’s a subculture or that it’s born from a subculture. They don’t understand that for a lot of us, it’s not something you consume, it’s something that you live.
So of course those two things are opposed. You can talk about all the financial factors as well, which are huge, but just in terms of something that you see immediately, that’s what you see. And there’s questions of etiquette as well around that, because some people don’t know how to… but you know, some of them do as well, and it’s great. But there’s a lot of contrasting things. It’s a strange moment.
On the other side of it, musically… some people might disagree, but I don’t think we’ve ever had a better time in terms of choice. You can pretty much go and find exactly what you want. I don’t remember another point in time where I could go, right, I want a Brazilian samba record, but one that turns into a braindance thing where it shifts into something off Rephlex and then ends with an ambient bit at the end. Whereas now you can probably find that. [Laughter]. And also the way that technology is affecting the music. Some of the music that I hear, it completely blows my mind. It’s jaw-dropping. On the creative side, I don’t think it’s ever been as rich.
CR: I reckon you’re the first person we’ve interviewed who’s still a regular Ibiza DJ. It just doesn’t come up that often on No Tags. I know that you went when you were much younger as well, so I’m interested in what you think of it now. It doesn’t strike me as a heads-y destination, but what’s the appeal for you to still play in Ibiza?
PW: You’re right, it’s not a heads-y destination. It’s almost like it’s two things. On one side of it, there’s still that… it’s just hedonism. And then on the other side of it, it’s the polar opposite of that.
CR: How do you mean?
PW: Well, you can just switch off from it all. Don’t even engage with any of that. You can go there and be in the north of the island and not even go to a nightclub, you know? But I have misgivings about it.
It’s so expensive, and the push to make the whole thing VIP – I think that’s a shame. Because you could be in one of the clubs there years ago and you would be stood next to one person on one side and another person on the other side, and you’re all from completely different backgrounds. There’s somebody to your left who lives in his van and somebody on your right with his yacht keys. But I don’t think that’s going to happen now. People can’t even afford to work there. There’s still the pull of it. It’s magnetic, you know, but it’s going through a strange moment.
TL: As someone who doesn’t go to Ibiza regularly, when you say they’re trying to turn the whole place VIP, what does that mean – practically?
PW: I think part of it was probably an ideological push. I think they just got sick of British tourists puking in the street and all that sort of carry-on. I understand that. But it’s just pricing everything out, making everything super exclusive, table service everywhere and the rest of it. That’s always been there, but it feels like the predominant thing now.
TL: Yeah, it definitely felt before like you could just blag it as a 17-year-old and cobble together enough money to make it happen.
PW: Exactly.
TL: A friend of mine from Darlington was telling me the other day that he saw Soul II Soul in the ‘90s in Ibiza and that was his ‘this is what I want to do the rest of my life’ moment. It’s sad to think that you might not be able to do that now.
PW: Yeah, but on the other side of it, people can just go to Croatia. Go somewhere else where you don’t feel like you’re getting turned over and have an amazing experience. A lot of people that would have gone to Ibiza, they will just do that.
CR: Before we drop the Ibiza topic, I would like to know: who is the weirdest person you found yourself with in a VIP room in Ibiza?
PW: Probably like Tyra Banks or someone like that? I’ve had some weird experiences there. I’ll tell you about one of them. This is appalling. Could you imagine, right, playing the Space terrace in the peak of it, playing for four hours, it’s Monday morning, seven o’clock. Another artist comes in, pissed out of his head with a CD in his hand, he can barely stand up. He’s an artist who’s on the bill. He played at 9pm. It’s now seven in the morning.
TL: You’ve nicely placed this, era-wise. A CD in his hand.
PW: He’s like ‘Play this’. And I’m like, ‘I’m not going to play your record, mate. I’m not going to play it.’ The promoter was there, off his nut, and he kept scooching down to hide his face because he was gurning. And this guy says, ‘Play my fucking record.’ And I was like, ‘I’m sorry, man, I’m not going to do that.’ I just gave him it back. And then I got back on with it, played my last record. And during my last record, he clotheslined me. Him and the girl he was with, they both attacked me.
I’m lying down on the booth in the Space terrace with my top down, like it’s been ripped down to there [gestures], fighting them both off. Anyway, the doorman gets them out and then I’m stood there chatting to the sound techs and that, saying, ‘What was going on there? That was a bit mad.’ Then I heard this noise and he’s come back in with a whole wallet of CDs and he’s thrown them at my head. He missed and it hit the wall behind. It was mental. I’ve got blood coming out of my face. It was the weirdest night ever.
TL: Do you know what’s funny? If that happened last year, everyone in this room would have seen the clip on Instagram already.
PW: Yeah, this is it. I’m thankful that it was a different time.
TL: Something that crops up a lot in our world is DJs talking about trying to scale back on gigs to prioritise their physical and mental health. You have a routine and you take care of yourself, but you’ve been playing more shows than ever in the last five years.
PW: Pretty much, yeah. That’s right.
TL: Is that a bit of an old-school attitude you’ve got there?
PW: Old-school greed, do you mean?
TL: Well, Michael Caine would knock out four films a year, whether they were good or not. I’m not saying you’re playing bad gigs. But I wonder if there’s a bit of a generational divide there where you’re like, ‘The work’s there, the gigs are there – let’s do it.’
PW: No, you know what it is? There’s things that I want to do, so I do them. Don’t get me wrong, I think I’ve been through some of that [burnout]. But it was many, many years ago – probably like 2007, 2008. It was pretty full-on, but I came through it.
The best thing you can do if you’re worn down by it and it’s taken its toll, is just take a holiday. Or if you can’t take a holiday, if you’re unable to for financial reasons or whatever, you need to get some distance, to not worry about the ‘scene’. You need to disconnect from all of that and just be outside. Get off your phone. I think we’re all glued to our phones, right? But they’re turning us into idiots. Or they are with me anyway.
CR: But sorry, just go back to it – you had a period where you were just touring way too much?
PW: Yeah, I was touring way too much, but also at every gig I was like, ‘right, where’s the afters?’ Until Tuesday, sometimes Wednesday. And that’s just not sustainable. You can’t do that. I realised there was a lot of changes that had to happen, not only with me, but my peer group. The people around you should have your best intentions at heart. They should look out for you. And if you’re carrying on, if it’s too much, they should say, ‘Oi, go to bed dickhead.’
CR: A lot of younger DJs probably look up to you as a good example of being able to basically do whatever you want. You're still releasing a lot, still playing a lot, you’ve arguably been peaking in the last five years. Who do you look up to? Or who have you looked up to?
PW: David Lynch, probably. Yeah, David Lynch.
CR: Explain.
PW: It’s funny because my first contact with his work, firstly his films, I just had no understanding. I was just baffled. But it stuck with me, you know, staying up late watching Eraserhead on Channel 4 and just thinking, ‘What is going on there?’ But when I really connected with his work, it was a lot later on. I don’t know, maybe it’s that there isn’t really a satisfactory explanation for any of what he does. He doesn’t give you a neat answer. That’s probably the realist thing about him. Because everyone’s like, ‘oh, yeah, these films are surreal,’ but in a way he’s just putting a mirror up to society and saying, ‘well, that’s a bit weird, isn’t it?’ I know that’s a terrible way to describe his work.
I went to one of his art exhibitions in Paris once when I was over for a gig. It was called The Air is on Fire and it was his paintings and some… I won’t say music, some noise that he’d made. And it was so jarring. It was really, really bleak. But he gave an interview at one point and he talked about an experience that he credits as being influential to him. It was when he was a kid, I don’t know how old he was, 11 or 12, I think it was outside [his] house, and this car pulled over and a naked woman got out. Him and his friend just looked at her like, ‘What is going on there?’ God knows what actually happened, but the possibilities of all of that have definitely fed into his work.
It was many years before I realised that his whole practice with meditation was a key part of it. And then from reading about it, I went down that avenue a little bit. I didn’t go all the way in, but I went in quite a bit. But I suppose his practice is almost non-judgemental. And that’s completely at odds with finding records as a DJ, where you’re permanently like ‘What do I think of this? That’s shit. Onto the next one.’ It’s like no, you’re judging everything. Do you know what I mean? What he was doing is completely different. It’s like he’s putting things together and triggering sensations.
And the other person whose life I’ve studied in depth is Francis Bacon. It’s a similar thing where it’s triggering sensations. It’s putting things together so that you get a reaction. And I guess in many ways, with music, that’s also what it is. You’re putting things together and you’re generating sensation based on combinations all the time. It could be the way a rim shot sounds against a kick, or it could be something way greater than that.
It also goes back to my first experiences with ecstasy. Not to dwell on that, but the first time I had a full experience with it, it was like, this is insane. And I guess in some ways it’s like trying to find… whether you’re watching a film, listening to a piece of music or reading a book or anything, any engagement with art where you feel something and the hairs stand up on the back of your neck or whatever it is… and that’s what it is. It’s just triggering sensation. That’s what all of this is.
TL: I’ve got a good segue on that note. David Lynch famously referred to creativity as catching the big fish.
PW: Yeah, right.
TL: What’s your big fish? What’s the one thing in the back of your head that you’re like, ‘before I bow out…’
PW: I’m not going to tell you that! There’s still loads that I’ve not done. I’ve been fortunate enough to be in a lot of mad situations. I’ve done a lot of things that I could only have dreamt of when I was 15. But there’s still a lot.
TL: You’ve done a little bit of film work, right? But you’ve never scored a full film.
PW: Yeah, I’ve never scored a film. I’ve done sound design. I had some sound design in the Blade Runner 2049 trailer, which was just bizarre. Those experiences are just weird. Especially with something like that where you connect with the first film, it’s been something that’s been in the back of your mind from when you were a kid almost. And then when that ends up happening, you’re just like, ‘How? How has this happened?’
But scoring is, I don’t know. There’s so much work you have to do with scoring. I love to work but when someone’s like, ‘Can you change this? We just focus-grouped it and everyone thinks this,’ and then the next day it’s ‘Can you change it back?’ I’m not sure I have the patience for it.
CR: Final question: would you like to recommend us a film?
PW: I watched a great film recently but it’s brutal. It’s called Hyena. It’s a British thriller but it’s heavy going. It’s not date night stuff. I go through phases where everything has to be gritty and after a while I’m just like, ‘Oh no, I just want to watch Care Bears.’ After a while you have to be careful about what you consume. When I was younger I didn’t really think about that, but as the years roll by you have to be careful.
CR: Can you tell us quickly about Hyena? Is it an older film?
PW: Yeah, it’s older. It’s about an undercover team of police, they’re corrupt and they get involved with this gang and it all goes tits up. The guy that played the lead character in it, he was so believable. He was so believable. Really, really crazy performance. I don’t want to give anything away, but if you’re into really spannered films, Hyena’s great.
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