Longtime friends from South London’s Brixton Hill – a UK drill heartland that also birthed 67, Carns Hill and more – JK and Bempah’s Scary Things radio show is a must-listen for anyone interested in what’s next on the horizon for rap music on either side of the Atlantic.
Back when the show was on Radar Radio, the pair had a reputation inside the station for hosting talent you’d never heard of, but who a year later would be breaking through. That reputation has only grown with their fortnightly NTS slot, where they’ve been early champions of everyone from Pop Smoke to Jim Legxacy. Outside of radio, Bempah also DJs for Digga D and 67.
When we were brainstorming the first guests for No Tags, Chal suggesting JK and Bempah was a bit of a light bulb moment. They’re both really funny — which, you know, helps when it comes to the podcast format — but more importantly they combine an infectious enthusiasm with a deep love and knowledge of the street music that continues to inspire them. They also speak their mind: a key segment of their NTS show is Stream Stars, where they discuss and rate the week’s new music with brutal honesty. In an era of posi-vibes-only music discourse, it actually feels transgressive.
We sat down with JK and Bempah to talk through their story so far (shout out DFR and Dan Mburu, who weren’t in attendance but complete the Scary Things collective). We also discussed the dialogue between UK and US regional rap styles, the Met Police’s treatment of drill artists, whether Central Cee can go all the way, the lack of breakout stars in 2023 and something called The Theory of Him, which you’ll just have to let them explain.
The episode is available to stream above or via the usual podcast apps (Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Castbox, etc). Below, you’ll find an edited transcript and a cheat list of artists that JK and Bempah have tipped for greatness. In the future, these edited interviews will be paid tier only, but for the moment — hey, we’re just happy to be here.
Chal Ravens: I thought a good place to start would be if you could just describe the NTS show. Because in the blurb on NTS it's the drill show — but tell us, what is Scary Things? What is the concept?
Bempah: Scary Things the show is just a cool platform that we use to do the shit that we do, on a regular basis at home. These are the vibes that we listen to, these are the vibes that if you pull up around us or you're a friend of ours, and you ever gave us the aux, this is what we're going to be running.
JK: Yeah. Piggybacking off what Bemps was saying, it's definitely that — it's the mandem's vibes. It's what we listen to, and being on radio, we obviously have an obligation to put you [as an artist] on also. So we're gonna find the new stuff that's that we like, and at the same time we might go and play something a bit leftfield or experimental, just because it's scary like that.
Tom Lea: What does scary mean in this context?
JK: Scary in this context is being such a immovable force that your peers and and affiliates have to go back to the drawing board. It's a good scary though, it's a scary that you can trust — like Captain America. He can kill you but at the same time he's leading the charge.
Bempah: You know when you see something that makes you rethink your whole plan? You could see a show, or you could just, I don't know, be on YouTube and you see someone do something that's just like... that's some scary shit.
JK: And that's why it's Scary Things, because it could be whatever. It could be music, it could be films, it could be sport. It could be whatever but we're trying to be the scariest.
Tom Lea: Because you’re doing a film club, right? How does that work? I thought that was a really interesting extension of the club night and the radio show.
Bempah: So JK, on the low, JK's a film buff. Serious, serious film buff — you studied film, right? With Sam Wise and that?
JK: Yeah, we were in the same film class. I be taking films serious. I like films a lot, a lot more than people would realise, and DFR likes films also. Bemps is like a sponge, he's always willing to learn stuff, and then Dan [Mburu] is in the cut as well. So we just said we might as well put on a little space, 'cause we know folks don't watch movies as much as they can or as they would like to, so even if it's just five or six of us, come watch some films bro.
Chal Ravens: What kind of films are we talking?
JK: The next one is up for debate. But we've had four so far and everyone's picked a film each. What did you pick again Bemps?
Bempah: I picked Oldboy.
JK: And he picked the original.
Tom Lea: Right, not the Spike Lee version — I always forget that exists. I rewatched [the original] about a month ago, actually,
Bempah: Dan picked Requiem For A Dream.
JK: Yeah, that shook me up. Heavy film, I left there feeling different. They should just play that film on repeat in jails.
Tom Lea: I thought it would be good to ask about radio as a format. How do you view yourselves as radio hosts in a UK rap context, and how do you view the role of radio overall in that context? Obviously radio was really integral to a genre like grime, but with the current generation of UK rap it feels much less of a go-to format than say, YouTube. So how do you view your role as radio hosts, DJs, critics, fans of the music, whatever?
Bempah: I feel like we always try to remain as fans, just keeping the excitement, as if we don't know the behind the scenes of it. I feel like we have a duty of care to put people on but at the same time it can be... I don't want to say tiring, but we are really immersed in the UK scene, from the underground Shoreditch mafia world to the hood man with the ballies. And not to say it gets tiring, but we're just in it. But there's a duty of care to always put people on, when we're on air.
Tom Lea: So it's fans first?
JK: Always, always, always, always.
Tom Lea: Because you're quite objective on the show at times. I'm always really impressed with it, and sometimes a little bit astounded when you do Stream Stars [a section of the Scary Things NTS show where JK & Bempah rate and review new releases, often with a guest]. You're brutally honest about the music, sometimes about artists you presumably know.
JK: You've got to call a spade a spade at the end of the day. And I feel like as a listener of music, or consumer of music — a consumer of any media — having a real opinion should be paramount. Forget about how people gonna feel, if your ting is real... like even if someone doesn't agree with it, they're gonna understand it because you've articulated yourself enough. Don't say stuff if you don't have knowledge behind it. When we're playing Stream Stars, that's why we make sure we stress [to our guests] you’re gonna speak your mind.
Chal Ravens: But it is striking that of all the radio shows that play new music and take it upon themselves to update people on a scene, no one else is giving out grades. And on the one hand, it's what a critic would do, but on the other hand, it's absolutely what a fan does — where you honestly chat to your friends about when you've been disappointed by a new track. And it feels weirdly refreshing to hear people have that conversation on the radio again.
When you're preparing for the show, is there a point where your separate tastes diverge? Are there moments where one of you is just like “no, we're not playing that”?
JK: It’s funny, we don't really discuss music on the day of the show. Even though we travel together — we might be like, oh you heard this?, but we kind of just come to the station and we let all unfold. Even Stream Stars, I send him the music 10 minutes or even less before we actually play the game. Folks think that we're we're in the back writing down notes and that... *pfft*
Bempah: And because I DJ off my laptop a lot of the time, I never, ever plan the show, I just open my laptop and DJ from my UK drill folder. It's only now that I've had to start to focus on trying to put together certain sets and get specific folders on USBs — before that it was just like, yo, open up the laptop, UK drill folder, start playing tunes from there and we out.
JK: It's crazy, man's known Bemps for time and it's only recently that I realised that rah — DJs actually plan sets. I didn't know it was a thing you know? If I'm lying I'm flying! 'Cause every time I roll with him, he looks at the crowd, he's gonna play what he's feeling, crowd gets lit, then there's more bookings. And I'm like, this evidently works!
Tom Lea: I remember once warming up for EZ, I was looking at his USBs and if I remember correctly, all he had was three folders: Bangers, UK Garage Classics, and a folder called Cool Kids — which he'd sometimes dip into to play SBTRKT or Disclosure or whatever. So if EZ can do 48-hour streams off three folders, then I think we all can.
JK: Being a fly on the wall and watching Bemps early doors... if you're a selector, if you know tunes? You're never gonna go wrong.
Chal Ravens: Maybe on that note, a little trip down memory lane? You mentioned a bit about what what was going on 10 years ago, so maybe you could paint a picture for us about what you were like when you were teenagers. Where are you from, what's the origin story here?
JK: We met at college. At 16, I was at college thinking to myself, what is going on? Why am I going to college so close to my house? I went to college in Croydon after going to secondary school in Croydon. I'm not from there, I'm from Clapham Park, Brixton Hill, whatever you want to call it — same as Bempah. So I was going to college, literally just figuring it out bruv. I literally remember being 16 just thinking, I don't even know what's going on. I didn't wanna go there, so I just had that mindset.
Chal Ravens: But were you listening to a lot of music at that time?
JK: The music was what was getting man through it, 'cause like I said, I didn't know what was going on. At 16, I was into French Montana, a whole load of rap stuff — Tyler the Creator, Odd Future…
Bempah: See when I was 16, I was DJing at uni parties. My older brother [DJ Furmzy] was a DJ as well, and he was three years above me. That's been my one W throughout the whole of man's life, from like year seven. So when I'm 16, he's in [university] first year, he's DJing in Coventry and shit, and obviously they're getting me into parties, so people always thought I was older. So by 16, I'm in college thinking, I'm not going to university anyway. I'd clocked what uni was — it's cap. People are looking forward to going to this place but it's not even lit up there.
Tom Lea: Was it your older brother who got you into DJing?
Bempah: Yeah, he was out partying when when I was in like year eight, year seven. He DJed bashment, he's a crazy dancehall DJ. He was K-Trap’s DJ for a while.
Tom Lea: So you two were orbiting each other for a bit [at college] but how did you actually end up linking up and forming a long-lasting partnership?
Bempah: How me and JK initially ran into each other was... so JK, he lives on ends, close to me — I mean literally down the road. He says he's lived there his whole life, but this doesn't make any sense because nobody can recall a time when we saw him back then.
JK: 'Cause you see me, I'm strict on morals. When I was growing up my mom said, listen mate, this area's a bit shaky — I don't want you to go to the local schools, so I went to school in Croydon. My older brother was saying the same thing – this area bro, just keep to yourself, find your set of friends and then you're gonna live a good life. So aight, cool, I stuck to that. So when I used to go out, I'm going to Croydon, Crown Point, Norwood, them sides, so if I'm seeing people like my man here on the ends, I’d see them going left and I’d go right. I wasn’t really there to make new friends.
Bempah: So we're at college now and me and JK have ended up chopping it up. We're walking back and he's walking the same direction home as me. We've lived in the same area, we've established that, but you know when you get to that part where it's like, I'm awfully close to my house and you're still with me. What's going on here? I'm trying to shake this yout, fully.
JK: Stranger danger is real these times. I don't know this gentleman, and he's walking fast. I'm thinking wait, is this the end of my story?
Bempah: I'm DJing for 67 at this point, and I ended up having a radio show. This was at Radar, but I was at Reprezent before. Me and JK are on the ends one time, we're out here doing all this separate stuff, and we decided to go to radio together. When we were there, I was like, you might as well jump on mic. So we’re going back and forth chatting about music on air, just like we do on the ends. But after the show, Gavin [Douglas, former Head of Radio at Radar Radio] was like [whispers] bring that guy back. So then it became the JK and Bempah show, and that eventually became Scary Things.
Chal Ravens: All the music that you were talking about from 10 years ago, it's basically all US stuff. But then we sort of hopped forward and you were DJing for 67. So when does like listening to... not even just UK music, but specifically South London music, when does that suddenly happen? What's the effect on you?
Bempah: So before even listening to the US stuff, I was listening to what my my older cousins and older brother was listening to: Joe Black, Giggs, Joe Grind, Potter Payper, Mover, English Frank, Krept & Konan. So that was the background, but it hit a point where them man hit a ceiling.
Chal Ravens: What was it like at that shift when suddenly drill is emerging, and it's really local to you, you're really connected to it — you must have had a different way of experiencing it to most people?
JK: You knew something was going on, you felt like something's happening here. Mandem are getting deals, you're seeing [YouTube] views get to a crazy amount of numbers. And it's like one minute I'm chilling with Bemps, the next minute he's talking about going on tour, I'm doing this show... I feel like I didn't have a period where I could actually deep it. It's just like, I'm growing up, I'm going to college, a new song comes out tomorrow. This song that's just bubbling, the next month it's on two million, three million [YouTube views] and now this guy who was on the ends, or this girl's cousin, he's signing a deal.
Chal Ravens: It probably felt weirder to me and Tom, having been writing about music [for longer], to see that happen and blow up in such a hyper-local way, and also to be such obvious reportage on hyper-local shit, as well. And I think it just really stuck out [to us] as a total sea change. But obviously, if you're 17, 18, 19 at the time, it's like, well, that's just what happening.
JK: Literally, it was just like, this is what's gwarning right now. It felt good, I'll say that as a blanket statement — new music was coming out all the time, competition was real. And nobody knew music business and all that stuff, like suddenly this guy's cousin is his manager now, and it's them against the world trying to get a YouTube video out. It was crazy.
Tom Lea: But sometimes that's when it's at its most creative. When the business isn't really in the room and people are just going into the great unknown. I think it's an interesting time. We're talking 2015-ish, and I don't want to make too sweeping a statement but I feel like that was potentially the last time that US rap music felt that lawless, in a good way — people just throwing out mixtapes, streaming hadn't really kicked in at that point. It just felt like on both sides of the Atlantic there was so much creativity in the air.
JK: Facts. There was that XXL Freshman Cypher, the last true one [from 2016, with 21 Savage, Kodak Black, Lil Uzi Vert, Denzel Curry and Lil Yachty].
Chal Ravens: And it's funny, because it doesn't feel like there's been a whole generation since to sweep all of them away.
JK: It was so polarising, it was so lit. Up to this day, I still go back and take it in — just like rah, these guys really wanted it.
Tom Lea: Did you already know 67 locally?
Bempah: Yeah. The same area that they're all from is where we're from, I went to school with a lot of them, went church with a couple man, it was a local thing. LD [67 member] lives opposite me, so some mornings I'd go to his yard, chill, and there was always bare man, rapper faces going in and out. And one day, he was just like, you might as well come DJ for the mandem. But at that time, there was no clout, no nothing. I was already DJing trap music — at that time we called drill trap anyway. So I was playing US trap, Future and shit, mixing it with UK trap. There was no drill then, but it was exactly what we were playing then, just with a different name.
Tom Lea: When Chicago drill started popping off, was it as quick as it seemed in terms of it influencing the music and the people around you?
JK: I would say so. Bempah was already in music at that time, but I'm just with my friends and I'm hearing this music pop off, and I'm seeing the change in my bredrins: all of a sudden people are growing their hair, everyone's throwing up gang signs, everyone's wearing True Religion fits.
Tom Lea: Where does grime factor into all this?
Bempah: Drill is definitely a grime baby in a way.
JK: Definitely. Because everyone that partakes in drill currently, they're not going to tell you, oh, I don't know what grime is. If you're from the UK, from London, there's definitely grime roots in you, and it definitely showed in the music. The grime guys didn't get a fair shake because of technology in the years that grime was coming up. And I feel like grime was less sensational than drill, if that makes sense.
Bempah: If the scene was the same back then, those kids [P2J Project] singing 'Hands in the Air', them man would've been millionaires.
Tom Lea: When you say technology, do you mean in terms of the business side?
JK: Business, the YouTube, how man's consuming the riddims, there's just bare things that they missed out on.
Bempah: The hood's always been there, and folks have always been tapped in, but how were you making money back then [pre-streaming]? Spotify has pros and cons — folks really don't buy music to this day, but at least now streaming's there people can get a little cheese. Bare man [from the grime era] went broke! There were no Ps in music.
JK: Pirate radio that's been celebrated so much is literally crime. Man can't go and do a steady radio and make some money, I've got to climb on the block and start doing all this funny stuff. It's fun now that we can laugh back at it, but really and truly that shouldn't have been going down. People wanna do that trauma porn, “this isn't like back in the day” — but brudda, man don't wanna be in that struggle! I wanna make music and make money. People are really changing their lives off this shit.
Chal Ravens: You've addressed it a little bit, but as much as it would've been different for grime artists if they had that infrastructure, drill artists have had to face a different type of response that is also fuelled by social media. There's huge moral panic about it, the way it's depicted in the media, and the way that social media itself not only fuels the scene but everything, people's lives. There's a lot of spotlight on it, and you have the police using music videos and lyrics in court cases. So drill artists have this entirely new range of problems that are also connected to the success of it, maybe?
JK: Exactly, the cheques are coming in. If the feds wanted to say listen, there's no more of this music stuff, they could have done that. They could've said drill, forget about it — if you're seen doing drill, you're done.
But obviously situations arise where people make it through. This is literally a school situation, where in school they tell you to apply yourself and you reap the benefits. This now is turning to a life or death situation because you want to retire your family, you want to make money and you realise you get paid for your voice. So you can either see it as long-term investment or you see it as, oh, I'm just doing this music ting. And that's what a lot of man in the ends are dealing with. The police are gonna do what the police do, the police have been shutting shit down — illegal raves, warehouse raves back in the day. So when the drill shit was going on, it was like, what do you expect? Police are always trying to do something to the mandem. But with [drill's success], that's what police didn't like, because constable will go upstairs and his son's listening to some drill shit. That's where they went wrong, they did target it in a way that's unfair, but there's guys that still won. Once you have some winners, the ecosystem can continue.
Tom Lea: So do you think it's too big to fail now?
Bempah: 100%. How long was [Central Cee & Dave's] 'Sprinter' running in the charts for?
JK: Central Cee's got little kids talking about having nine girls in a Sprinter — eaters! Come on bro. When I grew up the most outlandish thing in the charts was the Cheeky Girls.
Bempah: The Barbie song [Ice Spice & Nicki Minaj] is a drill song. That's crazy.
Tom Lea: So in terms of the main trends of the last five years of rap music, a big one has been the back-and-forth dialogue with drill coming from Chicago to the UK, then back over to the US with Brooklyn and Jersey putting their spin on it. What do you see coming in the next five years?
JK: Jim Legxacy. If this was a poker table right now, all my chips are going on Jim Legxacy and his various counterparts. I feel like we're going to get into some punk-rap type shit.
Chal Ravens: So musically you're saying it's prime for its punk moment, it's so established that it's like rock and roll in 1974. Somebody needs to come along and smash it up and be like, actually, you could be weirder.
Bempah: 100%. I feel like that's where the UK is. I'm not saying folks are over the drill thing, but if you're trying to have a good time, you ain't really trying to hear no drill. Unless it's a certain type of drill: 'Sprinter', [Digga D's] 'Woi'. But when people are really trying to let their hair down, we've got some Len running, some Fimiguerrero, Dom Corleo, Azuki, ReckyPacks, Just Banco.
JK: Party music. And these guys are like... drill was very “fuck the police” and this new wave is just kind of anti-establishment, kind of like “we do it ourselves” type of shit. Just like Scary Things, where there's four of us and we're just trying to put our brains together, tackle something and make it, this new wave of artists are literally like that. When we're speaking to them, one thing they're always saying is “the label want me to do this” or “they want me to drop this song over there, but I've already leaked it on my TikTok and the fans are rocking with it”. I'm seeing this happening in real time, and I'm like, this is the next wave. That's why Jim Legxacy's taking all my chips, because he's shown [the labels] that he can do it off the strength of the muscle.
JK: And we don't have a pop star anymore. Who's our UK pop star, who's a male, coming out of the Black scene? Our last one was Tinie Tempah.
Chal Ravens: I mean, it's Stormzy to be fair.
JK: Fair, he's not giving us [Swedish House Mafia and Tinie Tempah's] 'Miami to Ibiza' though. He's not giving us [Tinie Tempah's] 'Written in the Stars'. I hear you, Stormzy is our pop star by default, he's our de facto Black popstar. But I think it's coming for these man.
Tom Lea: Do you feel like Americans are more accepting of UK rap now? How do you find it when you play a festival like [international hip-hop festival] Rolling Loud?
Bempah: I was watching Lancey Foux at Rolling Loud the other day, and they really rock with him. Americans do rock with UK artists, but not to the point where it's like, yo, I'm popping out to this show and giving my energy. Lancey's had to work at that. Folks [over there] might say that they really like Dave… they like him a bit, but…
JK: They're not gonna say fuck Dave — impossible! But if you're driving from one state to another state and you said, sorry, I've only got Dave songs, they're gonna tell you we need to sort something out. Central Cee has the potential to get there, because he's actually coming with raps now. On top of his look, and the fact he looks like a pop star, he actually raps.
Tom Lea: That LA Leakers freestyle was just so clever as well.
JK: Central Cee could be Him. He could be Him. Time will tell. We discuss the Theory of Him a lot. It's a complicated mindset, because to be Him, you have to understand what comes with being Him. There's a lot of responsibility, there's a lot of obligation, being the front runner, the guy who is... the guy, you know? Heavy is the head. Stormzy even has a song called that, but Stormzy can't be Him.
Bempah: Stormzy can't be Him because Stormzy lost the ends. The thing about being Him, it's about being able to balance all those things.
JK: You have to be able to get the paupers and the kings on your side. Not everyone can be Him. Sometimes you're Him for a bit, you're never Him forever. Some people die being Him. Pop Smoke was Him — untouchable, respected, loved, hated, everything, and he died with that status. But long-living Hims? I don't know. There was a period of time that Dave was him, but then it was like alright, Dave's too political. Now you've got Central Cee...
Bempah: He's got everyone in the right place right now, his story is still playing out. Let's see how this plays out. There was a time where we thought Not3s was Him. But Tinie Tempah will die as Him, because he got in and got out. You didn't see him fade off, he just stepped back into the shadows.
JK: When the penny drops that there is no Him right now you can get into a melancholy state. Like, am I just listening to meedy guys?
Tom Lea: Do you think that is just in the UK though, or is that a modern music thing, in the sense that stuff is being consumed so fast? There was that article recently about how Ice Spice is the only new genuine breakout rap artist from the States, in terms of actually selling tickets at that level.
JK: I've started realising with a lot of the newer artists, [their] careers are... not gonna be short, but I don't think people are in it for the long game anymore, in terms of [Ice Spice's] age group. This new age, these artists who are born in 2000, 2001, they're gonna tell you, bro, I could blow up in five years, make enough and I'm out. In 10 years' time, I don't think Ice Spice is going to want to still be doing music. If she does then so be it, but I doubt she'll still be doing it.
Recorded at: SRP Studios
Theme music: Jennifer Walton
Branding: All Purpose
We asked JK and Bempah to point us towards 10 artists they’ve tipped for greatness. Here’s who they chose.
CFigures
Chy Cartier
Azuki
YTboutthataction
AB (Hammerville)
Coults
Callisto
untiljapan
Nemzzz
Lv
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